WFMU: Jason Elbogen: Playlist from July 2, 2017

Listener comments!
	9:02am fred: Welcome back Jason! It's been far too long
	9:04am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Hi Jason!
	9:07am Jason Elbogen: Hi, all! Thanks for tuning in.
	9:09am Jason Elbogen: You don't even have to go to church! Just listen.
	9:13am glenn: jeez. and just when i was planning on going to church for the first time in fifty odd years.
	9:13am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ✞SAVED✞
	9:19am fred: Yeah I care, but does anyone knows how health-care works? (except the general "it doesn't")
	9:22am northguineahills: I don't know, some of the stuff JM in the AM played was rather earnest.
	9:25am glenn: it works pretty good in canada. i go to the doctor, i give them my health card, wait for an hour and a half, see the doc, and that's the end of it.
	9:28am fred: @glenn: do you have a single-payer system there?
	9:31am glenn: you bet.
	9:38am Jason Elbogen: sorry. equipment breakdown, but I think it seems to have fixed itself with the old 'turn on/off' button technique
	9:40am fred: Jason, it wouldn't be your show without the occasional technical issue, especially filling-in for Jeff
	9:42am Jason Elbogen: 'Show me abortion'?
	9:44am Stanley: Show me some emotion?
	9:45am Stanley: Sorry, I don't mean you Jason.
	9:46am Stanley: GUNS what about the GUNS!!!
	9:48am glenn: guns don't kill people, fetuses kill people.
	9:48am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...& death penalty & war & carnivorousness & on & on...
	9:49am glenn: foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind. - ralph waldo emerson.
	9:49am fred: What they say is life is sacred from conception to birth, and no longer
	9:53am northguineahills: exactly, Fred!
	9:56am fred: That Amaryllis track was great, any more info?
	10:15am Nat Sowinski: only thing I'd say is that even if we DO have it on tape they don't get prosecuted for murder
	10:15am Nat Sowinski: indicted
	10:16am Nat Sowinski: imprisoned etc etc.... they all walk free regardless. I think there's ONE person who got indicted vs the vast majority of cops who don't. anyway I'm done :)
	10:17am fred: Well, they might get prosecuted, but what would it take to get a conviction? Having the cop somehow put on a hood and pull out a cross to burn?
	10:17am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: The Police Union is one mighty union that doesn't get broken up & shouted down as Commies...don't look for Justice there.
	10:18am Doctorjazz: had trouble finding the comments board, can only find out on the app. hi all. NY Times had an insert On The Constitution /Bill of Rights which was really interesting. Seems, like some other things out in to get slave states to join, it was not added for people to beat arms (at the time, people just did own guns; it was a given). "Bearing Arms" was a military term, it was meant to allow states to have militias to put down slave revolts. (slave started didn't trust a Federal army to always need on their side...)
	10:18am Erella: Yay! You're going back to play music.
	10:19am Scraps: Jason, nobody is saying that (that police are killing more people). And yes, now, because of BLM and videotaping, everybody talks about it more. But I don't hear anybody talking about police killing more.
	10:20am Erella: I think the conversation is important but Jason, please complete a sentence or thought. Your distracted style of conversation this morning is hard to follow.
	10:22am Scraps: Blacks say it's been happening for ages. Just that. Not more. In my ears, anyway.
	10:23am Scraps: (And, of course, it's true.)
	10:26am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: The NRA has roots in the KKK - yes that is my understanding. The whole gun rights thing is a complete misreading of the 2nd Amendment. The militarization of the police is a symptom of - the hyper-militarization of the entire civilization. Which is a symptom of the monetization of every human value.
	10:27am glenn: american cops do seem to shoot a lot of people. www.rawstory.com...
	10:30am Scraps: If somebody wants to say police have been killing more people than in the past, and you disagree, that's important. You have to tackle that, though, with statistics, not just your belief. IMO.
	10:33am Scraps: (Not talking to Glenn, but continuing Jason...)
	10:34am fred: I tried to find the source but couldn't, so take it with a generous serving of salt, but I remember reading a conservative writer saying he served on jury duty on a cop trial, and the ever present glare of uniformed cops who knew who he was and where he lived were on his mind when he cleared the official
	10:37am Ken From Hyde Park: Good morning, Jason and freeformers. Glad you got to make a fill-in.
	10:48am Scraps: No, I'm saying NOBODY has said that! That police are killing more people!
	10:48am Nat Sowinski: I know what you were trying to say I just wanted to make a point
	10:49am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: 'Watchtower' a Dylan composition of course - but even he does it Jimi style now...
	10:50am Scraps: Black Lives Matters says the police are killing people, black people particularly, and they've been killing people for years. You are saying MORE. Where are you getting this? Sigh
	10:51am Jason Elbogen: Oops, RR. I'm bad at 'the classics'. I grew up listening to Rap (pre-'hip-hop')
	10:58am fred: Geezer talk? I loved hearing students playing New Order at the local art school open-doors day this Friday. I spent a lot of time in my high school days trying to convert Depeche Mode fans to New Order
	11:00am Jason Elbogen: Scraps - Why hasn't Black Lives Matter--as a movement--existed in the same current state for years, then?
	11:01am Scraps: (To clarify: Black Lives Matter says police are killing people. Have been for years. They don't say, and far as I can tell, that police are killing more people now. You are saying they're saying that, and you disagree with these things that they aren't saying.)
	11:01am fred: @Jason: isn't it "Mais" instead of "Maise" on that Tran Thuyen record?
	11:02am Jason Elbogen: Fred--I'm sure it is!
	11:03am Scraps: Because BLM has raised their voices, we talk about it more. And, like you say, videotapes now support it.
	11:05am coelacanth∅: good morning Jason -and OUTies?
	11:06am fred: @Jason: the track title is a pun: it means "there's hardly peace, but it exists", with "hardly" standing for "guère" which sounds just like the "guerre" in the actual title, which means "war"
	11:06am Dean: See Franklin E. mring, When Police Kill (Harvard Univ. Pr. 2017). In brief, over recent years the numbers of police killings have held steady, but the various official reports have under-reported by half. Thus, for exampl, where an official report for 2001-13 ranges from approx. 350-450 per year, better empirical data suggest twice as much.
	11:08am Dean: Zimring example
	11:08am Scraps: As for why hasn't BLM existed as a movement before, well, why didn't Black Power exist until the sixties (explictly, with Caps)?
	11:09am Scraps: (answer: it boiled over, finally)
	11:09am Jason Elbogen: S- my main point--which I'm sure I inelegantly put while trying to do a radio show--is that, as an outsider to youthful political movements (I'm mid-forties)--my observation is that the BLM 'voices' seem to stress these police shootings as a new phenomena. And its not.
	11:11am Dean: The new phenomenon is widespread access to devices that can record police interactions and then distribute them at no cost.
	11:12am fred: Missing apostrophe! Are you trying to summon Ike?
	11:14am Scraps: If you look at the BLM words carefully, Jason, I think the "new" part disappears. BLM always says it's always been there. My late black wife certainly said that: always been there, blacks getting killed by cops.
	11:14am fred: @Dean: Over here (in France) the issue was solved by making it a crime to record police. So any evidence against them is thrown out in court
	11:15am Dean: Elegant solution, @fred.
	11:16am Jason Elbogen: On the lighter side of things, this Jorge Boussac lp is probably the best Uruguayan surfer album you're likely to hear.
	11:16am Scraps: Fred, ack, really?? Damn
	11:17am Dean: So many more Uruguayan surfer albums these days.
	11:18am Scraps: Very tiny Uruaguayan coast....
	11:18am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Makes sense: 'statistics' probably won't help if, like rape, it's under-reported by nature. I think we all agree it's a continuous problem, anyhow. Any number of things could effect the frequency going up or down...so there are a number of things that relate. I would say that elements that might increase incidence could be availability of guns & a more violent field of interaction for police & citizens alike - a more militarized Police - @ the same time being under-funded & more poorly 'trained' - a symptom of general economics...& a growing form of batshit Conservatism where the Legal System has degenerated in making anyone accountable for anything...@fred: Doing away w/ any pretense & admitting the tradition - very French, if I may say... But - when all is said - why would anyone think racial injustice - & judicial bias in favor of the Police - is anything new whatsoever? Clearly they're endemic - & epidemic.
	11:23am coelacanth∅: re: fred@11.14 i did get a summons once for photographing a friend being thrown over the back of a cop car, frisked, etc. (but i ignored it and nothing ever came of it.) - the charge was "obstructing justice".
	11:24am fred: @RevRab: bowing to power is what is so French about it
	11:25am Ken From Hyde Park: Drumpf going on the tweeter and promoting violence can't be helping the matter.
	11:26am coelacanth∅: of course younger people might think that. this particular movement is the first they're hearing about it.
	11:26am Dean: The Zimring book is a good antidote to the uncertainty. He certainly identifies availability of guns as one factor explaining police use of deadly force. He has a simple solution that focuses on, for lack of better term, "police culture." First, DON'T SHOOT (if there is any opportunity to avoid doing so), and second, if you have to shoot STOP SHOOTING (because the likelihood of fatality climbs precipitously as you fire more shots). The numbers of police killings of African Americans (mostly men) is well out of proportion to their (African Americans') numbers in the population. But the same goes for police killings of my demo--old, white farts--albeit not as egregiously.
	11:26am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Oh - the cornerstone of Drumpf's whole campaign was racism. Please. There's no doubt they feel empowered & sanctioned.
	11:27am Scraps: Well, because recent things are new things, and we talk about new things. I mean...?? Of course, BLM talks about new, recent things.
	11:31am Dean: Should have been more precise: young African American men.
	11:31am fred: What's the point of debating this here when we all basically agree? I'm afraid this is an echo-chamber contest of outrage. Convincing others there's a problem would help. How do we do that?
	11:32am Dean: So now of course some jerkoff is going to start OWFLM. @fred: The point is, perhaps, not so much to persuade the converted, but to arm them--pardon the expression--with ways to persuade others.
	11:34am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Like the Civil Rights movement in the 60s - the only solution would be to make it unequivocally understood on a national level by unceasing resistance & demonstration that Justice in the matter needs to become a National Priority. To make it one.
	11:36am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...of course, we have the wrong Administration for problem-solving anything whatsoever - for one thing...
	11:36am Scraps: But fred! We have to settle whether we're talking about increasing levels of violence or the same level of violence! Or maybe the level of violence has dipped! Could be! ;-)
	11:38am Dean: A solution will be multi-faceted. A lot of what goes on is purely local, but local practices are shared nationwide. See, e.g., this lovely 7-minute film hosted at New Yorker: http://video.newyorker.com/watch/conditioned-response
	11:40am fred: @Dean: sure, but the points that work with WFMU listeners won't carry much weight in the real world. Libertarians maybe, though @Scraps: easy: any level of violence is suspect at best and demands justification, not a blank check
	11:40am coelacanth∅: this band was so fuckin good!
	11:41am fred: Gỗ Lim!!! I love this band (and use it to drill unicode support into willfully ignorant coworkers)
	11:42am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: In fact - greater participation & local organization are looking like necessities for all our governmental problems. The only hope (frankly) is from bottom up. The top level has been completely sold out.
	11:43am coelacanth∅: haha fred! that should do it!
	11:43am fred: I must bow to Gary's general direction for introducing me to this band
	11:44am coelacanth∅: likewise, fred.
	11:45am Dean: @Rev Rabbit: James Fallows has been chronicling the relative successes of local initiatives (mostly economic, as opposed to legal, but still...), despite our miserable national circumstance.
	11:47am Dean: @fred: You're right. Lotsa people are data-resistant. But if Zimring is right about, e.g., the incidence of fatalities among old, white farts at the hands of the cops, then getting the word out might cause old, white farts to demand change. From our sofas, of course.
	11:47am fred: @coel: The response by Juce's creator was just short of disgusting. He claimed the (negligible) overhear wouldn't be worth his (English) time
	11:50am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: There is the idea that the Right knows its' demographic is shrinking - & there are inevitably more women voting - more people of color, younger people, LGBT & so on - so they shot the dice & went w/ Drumpf & other desperate measures w/ nothing to lose. If we become wiser & more activist from this - it would be a silver lining in this. The absolute control of the Oligarchy - the extent to which money power has a stranglehold - that is what drains my hope more than anything. I don't know how we oppose that.
	11:50am fred: @Dean: is that the James Fallows who used to write for The Atlantic?
	11:50am Scraps: See ya, bye! Good to talk with you, everybody, once Jason dragged me in. (Jason, I haven't been talking in like two or three months.)
	11:51am fred: Be back soon, Scraps
	11:51am Dean: Yes, @fred. Still does, but he's been on a hiatus.
	11:51am Ken From Hyde Park: Stay well, Scraps.
	11:52am Jason Elbogen: Scraps--I liked the discussion! thanks for it/listening.
	11:52am Scraps: Love, cheers!
	11:55am coelacanth∅: -good to see you again, Scraps. - tchau
	11:55am fred: Any chance of you coming back tp a regular show, Jason? Maybe on the drummer stream
	11:58am coelacanth∅: fred, i had to look up Juce. (& i don't know what "overhear" is) ...the concept is good anyway. (-probably especially for folks like me who cannot afford to &/or have a moral issue with "upgrading" every time a new version or device comes out.)
	11:59am northguineahills: Keep on playing!
	12:00pm coelacanth∅: i'm down, Jason... i'm not even dressed yet!
	12:00pm fred: @coel: just a typo, I meant overhead
	12:01pm coelacanth∅: oh, fred Haha! i thought it was another computer term i didn't know!
	12:04pm coelacanth∅: Kreepy Kristian Konnecticut Kult?
	12:04pm fred: So I'll have to wait until your kid can set it up for you. This might take a while
	12:11pm Jason Elbogen: Any Thetans listening?
	12:12pm thetan∅: no. maybe soon.
	12:13pm fred: Nice try, Jason, but we're banned from outing ourselves
	12:14pm Jason Elbogen: I'll see you guys on the cruise ship! Leaving Wednesday--no better way to get to China.
	12:16pm fred: May the crate-digging gods be with you Jason, and try to find a way to at least fill in once in a while
	12:16pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Thx JE ! Bon Voyage !
	12:16pm coelacanthΘ: have an Incredible Journey Jason! great program! tchau, camaradas
	12:18pm Jason Elbogen: Ok, getting hungry so this is that last song. Thanks all!
	12:21pm fred: I rescheduled stuff weeks ago so I could listen to this show. Just so you know you're missed
	12:24pm Ken From Hyde Park: Check in on the comments boards If you can, Jason. Someone's always aboard.
	2:43pm /mzm\: Hi Jason, come back for often~~

Jason Elbogen: Playlist from July 2, 2017

Freeful, Formless.

On WFMU's Give the Drummer Radio
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July 2, 2017

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Artist	Track	Album	Approx. start time
The Bethlehem Gospel Singers	My Bible Is Right (Part I)	My Bible Is Right (HSE-1430)	0:00:00 (Pop-up)
Gwen Carter	Jesus Is A Friend Of Mine	One More Days Work For Jesus (1977 TCS)	0:08:04 (Pop-up)
Beth Sholom Folk Rock Service	Adom Olam	Chants For Peace (No Label 1968)	0:12:17 (Pop-up)

Super Elcados	Murtala Muhammed Tribute	Tambourine Party (197x)	0:19:53 (Pop-up)
Ahouangnimon Sébastien Pynasco Et l'Orchestre Discafric-Band De Cotonou*	Mi Hlin Migan	Mi Hlin Migan 7" ( Voix Africaine 197?)	0:23:52 (Pop-up)
Joy Nwosu & Her Group	Egwu Oyoyo (Oyoyo's Dance)	Azania	0:28:17 (Pop-up)
Dreamland Faces	Side A "Side A" by "Dreamland Faces"		0:36:19 (Pop-up)
The Barbados Folk Singers	Brown Girl In The Ring	Vol 1 (196x WIRL 1006)	0:40:31 (Pop-up)

Amaryllis	End of the Century "End of the Century" by "Amaryllis"	世紀末だよ全員集合 (Captain Records 1987)	0:49:37 (Pop-up)
TV Dinner Education	Little Birds "Little Birds" by "TV Dinner Education"	Little Birds / External Borders 7" (2017 8tta 7uor)	0:51:35 (Pop-up)
Randy Demoss and the Space City Group	An Angel Blessed	Is This For Real? (198x Planet Records)	0:56:12 (Pop-up)
Big Snow From The North	Big Noise From Mars Vista #3	Big Snow From The North Volume 1 [Torchlight 1988]	0:58:41 (Pop-up)
Lawton, Fort Sill Oriental Band of India Shrine Temple		Lawton, Fort Sill Oriental Band of India Shrine Temple (1977)	1:02:45 (Pop-up)
Boundstone School (students)	Wha'der You Want I'm a Heap Big Heterosexual Man	Presents Gynt On The Rocks (1978 John Hassell)(	1:04:57 (Pop-up)
Schizos	I'm A Bug/Cop Problem "I'm A Bug/Cop Problem" by "Schizos"	Fuck Iggy Pop EP (2017 Neck Chop)	1:08:26 (Pop-up)

Grupo De Pomuch	Canto Del Tun-Kul	Mayas Peninsulares - Encuentros de Musica Tradicional Indigena (Ini-Fonapas Serie 1 - Vol.1)	1:18:32 (Pop-up)
Angolan Villagers & MPLA Militants	MPLA Songs	VA - Africa In Revolutionary Music (1975 LSM Records)	1:23:16 (Pop-up)
The Golden Voice of Africa : "Aishat Mohammed"	Allah Inana	Duniya (1970)	1:26:34 (Pop-up)
Kijana	Power of Love "Power of Love" by "Kijana"	The Soul of Kijana Unfolds in Music (1975)	1:31:26 (Pop-up)
Dane Belany	Circonstom "Circonstom" by "Dane Belany"	Motivations (Sahara 1975)	1:35:43 (Pop-up)

Jackson	All Along the Watchtower "All Along the Watchtower" by "Jackson"	Alone Together (No Label 1971)	1:48:29 (Pop-up)
John Huckert & Mary Little	Sweet Cocaine	Through the Music I Will Love You (1975)	1:51:52 (Pop-up)
Les Tran Thuyen	Il N'y a Guerre De Paix, Mais Elle Existe	ST (1976 Trinite)	1:57:06 (Pop-up)
Light of Life Group	Seil Gott Die Menschen	Hamartia Rockoratorium (1973)	2:02:24 (Pop-up)
Masataka Hara	Tabi ni Deru Uta "Tabi ni Deru Uta" by "Masataka Hara"	Hatsukunishirasumeramikoto (1973)	2:07:46 (Pop-up)
Jorge Boussac	Solo Vos "Solo Vos" by "Jorge Boussac"	Cascada (197x)	2:12:08 (Pop-up)
Lou Seiler	Atomic Silo "Atomic Silo" by "Lou Seiler"	The Ballad of Louie Silo (1979)	2:18:26 (Pop-up)

Johnny Guitar	Laokratobemai "Laokratobemai" by "Johnny Guitar"	Manohra Fire SPC 1001	2:26:56 (Pop-up)
José Maceda	Guitar, Played by Ayte Group, 1953	Archival Sound Series: Field Recordings of the Philippines [1953-72]	2:30:26 (Pop-up)
Hamid Zahir	Hada Wa'du Meskin - Lagnawi	H. Azzahir - Live (CKTP5006)	2:31:05 (Pop-up)
Gỗ Lim	Meowww "Meowww" by "Gỗ Lim"	Gái Làng (2015)	2:38:42 (Pop-up)
Rabbit Fun	Pos, Sleeuwen "Pos, Sleeuwen" by "Rabbit Fun"	VA - Effenar (Trangenero 2017)	2:43:27 (Pop-up)
DA	White Castles "White Castles" by "DA"	Dark Rooms (1981 Autumn Records)	2:47:30 (Pop-up)
Mike Shea & Razortalk	I'm Your Age	Animal Age (1986 Neo Records)	2:50:55 (Pop-up)
Siren	Breaking It Down "Breaking It Down" by "Siren"	Siren Plays [1982 Siren Scst 003]	2:55:01 (Pop-up)

	a song		3:03:29 (Pop-up)
Immaculata Singers	This Is My Body	This Is My Body: Meditative Moments From Immaculata (1980)	3:05:23 (Pop-up)
Affinity (AZ)	I'm A Thetan "I'm A Thetan" by "Affinity (AZ)"	Live! (1981 Aces Records)	3:08:35 (Pop-up)
Temptation Rise	He Made A Right From Wrong	ST (196x Anthron International)	3:13:20 (Pop-up)
Ozobby Horn	We Are Getting On The Move	Born to Move On (Nigeria 197x)	3:16:52 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	9:02am fred: Welcome back Jason! It's been far too long
	9:04am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Hi Jason!
	9:07am Jason Elbogen: Hi, all! Thanks for tuning in.
	9:09am Jason Elbogen: You don't even have to go to church! Just listen.
	9:13am glenn: jeez. and just when i was planning on going to church for the first time in fifty odd years.
	9:13am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ✞SAVED✞
	9:19am fred: Yeah I care, but does anyone knows how health-care works? (except the general "it doesn't")
	9:22am northguineahills: I don't know, some of the stuff JM in the AM played was rather earnest.
	9:25am glenn: it works pretty good in canada. i go to the doctor, i give them my health card, wait for an hour and a half, see the doc, and that's the end of it.
	9:28am fred: @glenn: do you have a single-payer system there?
	9:31am glenn: you bet.
	9:38am Jason Elbogen: sorry. equipment breakdown, but I think it seems to have fixed itself with the old 'turn on/off' button technique
	9:40am fred: Jason, it wouldn't be your show without the occasional technical issue, especially filling-in for Jeff
	9:42am Jason Elbogen: 'Show me abortion'?
	9:44am Stanley: Show me some emotion?
	9:45am Stanley: Sorry, I don't mean you Jason.
	9:46am Stanley: GUNS what about the GUNS!!!
	9:48am glenn: guns don't kill people, fetuses kill people.
	9:48am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...& death penalty & war & carnivorousness & on & on...
	9:49am glenn: foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind. - ralph waldo emerson.
	9:49am fred: What they say is life is sacred from conception to birth, and no longer
	9:53am northguineahills: exactly, Fred!
	9:56am fred: That Amaryllis track was great, any more info?
	10:15am Nat Sowinski: only thing I'd say is that even if we DO have it on tape they don't get prosecuted for murder
	10:15am Nat Sowinski: indicted
	10:16am Nat Sowinski: imprisoned etc etc.... they all walk free regardless. I think there's ONE person who got indicted vs the vast majority of cops who don't. anyway I'm done :)
	10:17am fred: Well, they might get prosecuted, but what would it take to get a conviction? Having the cop somehow put on a hood and pull out a cross to burn?
	10:17am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: The Police Union is one mighty union that doesn't get broken up & shouted down as Commies...don't look for Justice there.
	10:18am Doctorjazz: had trouble finding the comments board, can only find out on the app. hi all. NY Times had an insert On The Constitution /Bill of Rights which was really interesting. Seems, like some other things out in to get slave states to join, it was not added for people to beat arms (at the time, people just did own guns; it was a given). "Bearing Arms" was a military term, it was meant to allow states to have militias to put down slave revolts. (slave started didn't trust a Federal army to always need on their side...)
	10:18am Erella: Yay! You're going back to play music.
	10:19am Scraps: Jason, nobody is saying that (that police are killing more people). And yes, now, because of BLM and videotaping, everybody talks about it more. But I don't hear anybody talking about police killing more.
	10:20am Erella: I think the conversation is important but Jason, please complete a sentence or thought. Your distracted style of conversation this morning is hard to follow.
	10:22am Scraps: Blacks say it's been happening for ages. Just that. Not more. In my ears, anyway.
	10:23am Scraps: (And, of course, it's true.)
	10:26am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: The NRA has roots in the KKK - yes that is my understanding. The whole gun rights thing is a complete misreading of the 2nd Amendment. The militarization of the police is a symptom of - the hyper-militarization of the entire civilization. Which is a symptom of the monetization of every human value.
	10:27am glenn: american cops do seem to shoot a lot of people. www.rawstory.com...
	10:30am Scraps: If somebody wants to say police have been killing more people than in the past, and you disagree, that's important. You have to tackle that, though, with statistics, not just your belief. IMO.
	10:33am Scraps: (Not talking to Glenn, but continuing Jason...)
	10:34am fred: I tried to find the source but couldn't, so take it with a generous serving of salt, but I remember reading a conservative writer saying he served on jury duty on a cop trial, and the ever present glare of uniformed cops who knew who he was and where he lived were on his mind when he cleared the official
	10:37am Ken From Hyde Park: Good morning, Jason and freeformers. Glad you got to make a fill-in.
	10:48am Scraps: No, I'm saying NOBODY has said that! That police are killing more people!
	10:48am Nat Sowinski: I know what you were trying to say I just wanted to make a point
	10:49am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: 'Watchtower' a Dylan composition of course - but even he does it Jimi style now...
	10:50am Scraps: Black Lives Matters says the police are killing people, black people particularly, and they've been killing people for years. You are saying MORE. Where are you getting this? Sigh
	10:51am Jason Elbogen: Oops, RR. I'm bad at 'the classics'. I grew up listening to Rap (pre-'hip-hop')
	10:58am fred: Geezer talk? I loved hearing students playing New Order at the local art school open-doors day this Friday. I spent a lot of time in my high school days trying to convert Depeche Mode fans to New Order
	11:00am Jason Elbogen: Scraps - Why hasn't Black Lives Matter--as a movement--existed in the same current state for years, then?
	11:01am Scraps: (To clarify: Black Lives Matter says police are killing people. Have been for years. They don't say, and far as I can tell, that police are killing more people now. You are saying they're saying that, and you disagree with these things that they aren't saying.)
	11:01am fred: @Jason: isn't it "Mais" instead of "Maise" on that Tran Thuyen record?
	11:02am Jason Elbogen: Fred--I'm sure it is!
	11:03am Scraps: Because BLM has raised their voices, we talk about it more. And, like you say, videotapes now support it.
	11:05am coelacanth∅: good morning Jason -and OUTies?
	11:06am fred: @Jason: the track title is a pun: it means "there's hardly peace, but it exists", with "hardly" standing for "guère" which sounds just like the "guerre" in the actual title, which means "war"
	11:06am Dean: See Franklin E. mring, When Police Kill (Harvard Univ. Pr. 2017). In brief, over recent years the numbers of police killings have held steady, but the various official reports have under-reported by half. Thus, for exampl, where an official report for 2001-13 ranges from approx. 350-450 per year, better empirical data suggest twice as much.
	11:08am Dean: Zimring example
	11:08am Scraps: As for why hasn't BLM existed as a movement before, well, why didn't Black Power exist until the sixties (explictly, with Caps)?
	11:09am Scraps: (answer: it boiled over, finally)
	11:09am Jason Elbogen: S- my main point--which I'm sure I inelegantly put while trying to do a radio show--is that, as an outsider to youthful political movements (I'm mid-forties)--my observation is that the BLM 'voices' seem to stress these police shootings as a new phenomena. And its not.
	11:11am Dean: The new phenomenon is widespread access to devices that can record police interactions and then distribute them at no cost.
	11:12am fred: Missing apostrophe! Are you trying to summon Ike?
	11:14am Scraps: If you look at the BLM words carefully, Jason, I think the "new" part disappears. BLM always says it's always been there. My late black wife certainly said that: always been there, blacks getting killed by cops.
	11:14am fred: @Dean: Over here (in France) the issue was solved by making it a crime to record police. So any evidence against them is thrown out in court
	11:15am Dean: Elegant solution, @fred.
	11:16am Jason Elbogen: On the lighter side of things, this Jorge Boussac lp is probably the best Uruguayan surfer album you're likely to hear.
	11:16am Scraps: Fred, ack, really?? Damn
	11:17am Dean: So many more Uruguayan surfer albums these days.
	11:18am Scraps: Very tiny Uruaguayan coast....
	11:18am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Makes sense: 'statistics' probably won't help if, like rape, it's under-reported by nature. I think we all agree it's a continuous problem, anyhow. Any number of things could effect the frequency going up or down...so there are a number of things that relate. I would say that elements that might increase incidence could be availability of guns & a more violent field of interaction for police & citizens alike - a more militarized Police - @ the same time being under-funded & more poorly 'trained' - a symptom of general economics...& a growing form of batshit Conservatism where the Legal System has degenerated in making anyone accountable for anything...@fred: Doing away w/ any pretense & admitting the tradition - very French, if I may say... But - when all is said - why would anyone think racial injustice - & judicial bias in favor of the Police - is anything new whatsoever? Clearly they're endemic - & epidemic.
	11:23am coelacanth∅: re: fred@11.14 i did get a summons once for photographing a friend being thrown over the back of a cop car, frisked, etc. (but i ignored it and nothing ever came of it.) - the charge was "obstructing justice".
	11:24am fred: @RevRab: bowing to power is what is so French about it
	11:25am Ken From Hyde Park: Drumpf going on the tweeter and promoting violence can't be helping the matter.
	11:26am coelacanth∅: of course younger people might think that. this particular movement is the first they're hearing about it.
	11:26am Dean: The Zimring book is a good antidote to the uncertainty. He certainly identifies availability of guns as one factor explaining police use of deadly force. He has a simple solution that focuses on, for lack of better term, "police culture." First, DON'T SHOOT (if there is any opportunity to avoid doing so), and second, if you have to shoot STOP SHOOTING (because the likelihood of fatality climbs precipitously as you fire more shots). The numbers of police killings of African Americans (mostly men) is well out of proportion to their (African Americans') numbers in the population. But the same goes for police killings of my demo--old, white farts--albeit not as egregiously.
	11:26am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Oh - the cornerstone of Drumpf's whole campaign was racism. Please. There's no doubt they feel empowered & sanctioned.
	11:27am Scraps: Well, because recent things are new things, and we talk about new things. I mean...?? Of course, BLM talks about new, recent things.
	11:31am Dean: Should have been more precise: young African American men.
	11:31am fred: What's the point of debating this here when we all basically agree? I'm afraid this is an echo-chamber contest of outrage. Convincing others there's a problem would help. How do we do that?
	11:32am Dean: So now of course some jerkoff is going to start OWFLM. @fred: The point is, perhaps, not so much to persuade the converted, but to arm them--pardon the expression--with ways to persuade others.
	11:34am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Like the Civil Rights movement in the 60s - the only solution would be to make it unequivocally understood on a national level by unceasing resistance & demonstration that Justice in the matter needs to become a National Priority. To make it one.
	11:36am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...of course, we have the wrong Administration for problem-solving anything whatsoever - for one thing...
	11:36am Scraps: But fred! We have to settle whether we're talking about increasing levels of violence or the same level of violence! Or maybe the level of violence has dipped! Could be! ;-)
	11:38am Dean: A solution will be multi-faceted. A lot of what goes on is purely local, but local practices are shared nationwide. See, e.g., this lovely 7-minute film hosted at New Yorker: http://video.newyorker.com/watch/conditioned-response
	11:40am fred: @Dean: sure, but the points that work with WFMU listeners won't carry much weight in the real world. Libertarians maybe, though @Scraps: easy: any level of violence is suspect at best and demands justification, not a blank check
	11:40am coelacanth∅: this band was so fuckin good!
	11:41am fred: Gỗ Lim!!! I love this band (and use it to drill unicode support into willfully ignorant coworkers)
	11:42am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: In fact - greater participation & local organization are looking like necessities for all our governmental problems. The only hope (frankly) is from bottom up. The top level has been completely sold out.
	11:43am coelacanth∅: haha fred! that should do it!
	11:43am fred: I must bow to Gary's general direction for introducing me to this band
	11:44am coelacanth∅: likewise, fred.
	11:45am Dean: @Rev Rabbit: James Fallows has been chronicling the relative successes of local initiatives (mostly economic, as opposed to legal, but still...), despite our miserable national circumstance.
	11:47am Dean: @fred: You're right. Lotsa people are data-resistant. But if Zimring is right about, e.g., the incidence of fatalities among old, white farts at the hands of the cops, then getting the word out might cause old, white farts to demand change. From our sofas, of course.
	11:47am fred: @coel: The response by Juce's creator was just short of disgusting. He claimed the (negligible) overhear wouldn't be worth his (English) time
	11:50am Revolution Rabbit Nov63: There is the idea that the Right knows its' demographic is shrinking - & there are inevitably more women voting - more people of color, younger people, LGBT & so on - so they shot the dice & went w/ Drumpf & other desperate measures w/ nothing to lose. If we become wiser & more activist from this - it would be a silver lining in this. The absolute control of the Oligarchy - the extent to which money power has a stranglehold - that is what drains my hope more than anything. I don't know how we oppose that.
	11:50am fred: @Dean: is that the James Fallows who used to write for The Atlantic?
	11:50am Scraps: See ya, bye! Good to talk with you, everybody, once Jason dragged me in. (Jason, I haven't been talking in like two or three months.)
	11:51am fred: Be back soon, Scraps
	11:51am Dean: Yes, @fred. Still does, but he's been on a hiatus.
	11:51am Ken From Hyde Park: Stay well, Scraps.
	11:52am Jason Elbogen: Scraps--I liked the discussion! thanks for it/listening.
	11:52am Scraps: Love, cheers!
	11:55am coelacanth∅: -good to see you again, Scraps. - tchau
	11:55am fred: Any chance of you coming back tp a regular show, Jason? Maybe on the drummer stream
	11:58am coelacanth∅: fred, i had to look up Juce. (& i don't know what "overhear" is) ...the concept is good anyway. (-probably especially for folks like me who cannot afford to &/or have a moral issue with "upgrading" every time a new version or device comes out.)
	11:59am northguineahills: Keep on playing!
	12:00pm coelacanth∅: i'm down, Jason... i'm not even dressed yet!
	12:00pm fred: @coel: just a typo, I meant overhead
	12:01pm coelacanth∅: oh, fred Haha! i thought it was another computer term i didn't know!
	12:04pm coelacanth∅: Kreepy Kristian Konnecticut Kult?
	12:04pm fred: So I'll have to wait until your kid can set it up for you. This might take a while
	12:11pm Jason Elbogen: Any Thetans listening?
	12:12pm thetan∅: no. maybe soon.
	12:13pm fred: Nice try, Jason, but we're banned from outing ourselves
	12:14pm Jason Elbogen: I'll see you guys on the cruise ship! Leaving Wednesday--no better way to get to China.
	12:16pm fred: May the crate-digging gods be with you Jason, and try to find a way to at least fill in once in a while
	12:16pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Thx JE ! Bon Voyage !
	12:16pm coelacanthΘ: have an Incredible Journey Jason! great program! tchau, camaradas
	12:18pm Jason Elbogen: Ok, getting hungry so this is that last song. Thanks all!
	12:21pm fred: I rescheduled stuff weeks ago so I could listen to this show. Just so you know you're missed
	12:24pm Ken From Hyde Park: Check in on the comments boards If you can, Jason. Someone's always aboard.
	2:43pm /mzm\: Hi Jason, come back for often~~

Jason Elbogen: Playlist from July 2, 2017

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