WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from September 4, 2023

Listener comments!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtonimizers!
	🤖 6:00pm chresti: Hi Mark and Techtonians!
	6:00pm Rolando: Good morning friends as always I’m looking forward to the learning journey. Telemetry!! 😊
	6:01pm Bea: Good evening, Mark and fellow listeners!
	🤖 6:01pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! All!
	🤖 6:01pm Webhamster Henry: Hi there, Friends!
	🤖 6:02pm tim: Hey Mark! I saw and heard an ELECTRIC leaf blower today! Maybe there is hope! Hey everyone!
	6:02pm David in London: Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	🤖 6:02pm DjLorraine: Hello!
	🤖 6:02pm Deano de los Muertos: hello everybody 👾
	🤖 6:02pm Webhamster Henry: in re: "Fancy dataviz", Tufte calles it "Chartjunk"
	🤖 6:04pm Wendy del Formaggio: Hey Mark! Ooh! I'm looking forward to this show. I've been thinking about the failures of the hyper-focus on optimization and efficiency. Let's just be humans! Fuck capitalism!
	6:05pm Rolando: Spring and the promise of Australian sunshine ☀️☀️
	🤖 6:05pm Ken From Hyde Park: I think Vicki already did a whole week on Optimization — www.wfmu.org... Wait, what?
	🤖 6:06pm herb.nyc: Hola. Just finished a 7x7 Kenken (aka Ken Andy). Took me 25mins. I optimized it and am on time for techtonic!
	🤖 6:07pm Webhamster Henry: That's not what "slack" used to mean: www.subgenius.com...
	6:07pm swivs: You say Slack? This a Bob party?
	6:08pm swivs: ↳ Webhamster Henry @6:07 🥹
	🤖 6:08pm herb.nyc: Who has a pair of Haband slacks?
	6:08pm StringOFperils: Digital for the Pinks NOW!
	6:08pm swivs: Zippy the Clown likes Slacks
	6:09pm nadalex: I love Infinite Detail! Whats the date of the Maughn interview?
	🤖 6:09pm herb.nyc: Clogged Suez Canal? Get a colonoscopy! I did, Aug 9. I passed
	🤖 6:09pm Wendy del Formaggio: Mark, did you just use the word "perturbation"? NICE! I looked it up, and now I know a new and very useful word.
	6:09pm ultradamno: I thought they were pants
	🤖 6:09pm tim: In the analog world it feels like there’s no slack in the system either.
	🤖 6:09pm Deano de los Muertos: very interesting topic
	6:09pm Dean: Contingency planning is a species of optimization, since we will never control all the variables. In other words, if you really want to optimize something, you should provide for buffer.
	🤖 6:10pm Handy Haversack: Hello, Mark, Techyon Particles.
	6:10pm nadalex: Btw if anyone likes audio books, the audiobook for Infinite Detail is amazing. Available from your library on Libby app
	6:11pm tom tom the pipers son: lack of slack synonymous with lack of running room the adolf loos term in ornament and crime?
	6:13pm Bat_Ranch_Mike: Wow!! Techtonic is doing a show which is in the vein of the Church if the Subgenius. The concept of Slack is central to the Church! You can check it out online.
	🤖 6:13pm DjLorraine: In the 70's my brothers hand me downs of i think Farah slacks had the best pockets.
	🤖 6:16pm tim: “or something” hahaha!
	6:17pm Dean: There was reverence for money, and there is no mystique about money.
	6:18pm tom tom the pipers son: ↳ tom tom the pipers son @6:11 is there a historical analogy between art nouveau and total design and technology optimization?
	6:20pm Mark Hurst: ↳ tim @6:02 I hope it was quieter than the usual pollution-belching model!
	6:20pm -жеи: Hi everybody
	6:21pm Juli: Enjoying this:::...:::
	🤖 6:22pm herb.nyc: Poor farmers. Small ones are being bought out by corporations and the rich. Latter: Bill gates is a farmer. Yep (Yay, station manager here. ie, head farmer)
	🤖 6:22pm Ken From Hyde Park: The farmland around my dear mother's place used to consist of wheat, barley, millet, flax, oats, rye and sunflowers. These days, it's almost all just corn and soybeans.
	🤖 6:22pm tim: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:20 It was! Not exactly soothing but the noise pollution (and pollution pollution) was greatly improved!
	🤖 6:23pm herb.nyc: Mark mentions a beet farmer. NOT cool band the Beat Farmers
	6:23pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Ken From Hyde Park @6:05 Good point, @KfHP - lots of listening in Vicki's Optimized radio stream from 2016.
	🤖 6:23pm Wendy del Formaggio: Oh. I've been reading Wendell Berry's "The Unsettling of America" lately, and he was talking about these same themes in 1977.
	6:23pm -жеи: I love The Beat Pharmers
	🤖 6:24pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ herb.nyc @6:23 You read my mind, herb.nyc!
	6:24pm Bat_Ranch_Mike: Beet farmer Bob ... last name Dobbs???
	6:24pm Mark Hurst: ↳ nadalex @6:09 Tim Maughan from Nov 11, 2019: www.wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:24pm DjLorraine: I just watched the documentary "Kiss the Ground" about regenerative agriculture. No till and carbon capturing are highlighted. Woody Harrelson is the narrator. Thanks Mark Hurst for this timely and important show.
	🤖 6:24pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Ken From Hyde Park @6:22 Yup, that's the interstate system. Corn on one side of the road, soy on the other.
	6:24pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:09 Twenty-five cent words here on Techtonic
	🤖 6:25pm tim: ↳ -жеи @6:23 Ha! I was hoping for a joke there!
	6:25pm -жеи: ↳ herb.nyc @6:23 Herb you must be talking about the British Beat Farmers. I meant the American band Th Beat Pharmers
	6:25pm Juli: She means make crops which you can spray w pesticides and grow more
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Bat_Ranch_Mike @6:13 Bob will bring back the slack
	6:25pm Juli: It's cancer.
	6:25pm Jackie G: ↳ DjLorraine @6:24 Saw that. Seems like a no brainer.
	6:26pm StringOFperils: ↳ Juli @6:25 True. These GMO crops are co-engineered with the chemistry they market
	🤖 6:26pm tim: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:24 You sure you’ve never been to Champaign IL?
	🤖 6:26pm herb.nyc: ↳ -жеи @6:25 No. There’s a west coast (?) Beat F band. 1986,87?
	🤖 6:27pm Handy Haversack: ↳ tim @6:26 We are all Tim from Champaign!
	6:27pm -жеи: The Subgenius parallels to this show are impressive
	🤖 6:27pm herb.nyc: ↳ -жеи @6:25 The Beat Farmers were an American rock band that formed in San Diego, California, United States, in August 1983, and enjoyed a cult following into the early 1990s before
	🤖 6:27pm Deano de los Muertos: I’ve heard that the gmo crops can cross pollinate and invade your fields whether you want them or not
	6:28pm Dean: Bill Gates bought the farm?!
	6:28pm StringOFperils: ↳ Deano de los Muertos @6:27 'Genetic drift'
	🤖 6:28pm herb.nyc: How about SEEDLESS fruits? If ya wanna grow them then you hafta buy seeds. Buy from mega corporations?
	🤖 6:29pm Will thee Sound Guy: Hi Mark and all!!! been listening, just having a chance to chime in
	6:29pm Fredericks: ↳ herb.nyc @6:27 I have their first record.
	6:29pm Jackie G: Really like the name Coco Krumme
	6:29pm LiXiviated Life: Hi ya crew
	6:29pm -жеи: ↳ herb.nyc @6:27 So many Beat Farmers. What can men do against such reckless hate?
	🤖 6:30pm DjLorraine: ↳ herb.nyc @6:28 Yes, the 1st time i saw this i knew it was not a good in the long run.
	6:30pm StringOFperils: ↳ -жеи @6:29 They're too busy playing bongos to really accomplish much
	🤖 6:30pm Ken From Hyde Park: ↳ herb.nyc @6:27 Featuring Country Dick Montana, who died onstage during a performance. 😔
	🤖 6:30pm herb.nyc: ↳ Fredericks @6:29 Maybe I saw them at Irving Plaza
	6:30pm tom tom the pipers son: strangulated beat farmers?
	🤖 6:30pm Handy Haversack: Oh, wow, yeah. All the GTO solvers make poker a lot more boring.
	6:30pm Dean: The solution poetry getting boring? Strip poker!
	6:31pm ultradamno: Country Dick Montana would be a great name for a singer of a C&W band that does Dictators covers
	6:32pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Will thee Sound Guy @6:29 Good to see you, Will
	🤖 6:32pm Handy Haversack: Fortunately I'm not good enough at poker to hang with the people who are memorizing the solvers, so at my level, the human element persists. Long live amateurism.
	6:32pm LiXiviated Life: Gregory Corso once told me you can tell a Beat Farmer by his fried shoes
	🤖 6:32pm tim: Ken - do you feel the creeping sadness now that WFMU has achieved world domination?
	6:33pm Dean: But "solving" problems isn't the same as "optimizing" solutions. Being hell-bent on solving things is a good thing. But the first step is in understanding the problem we aim to solve.
	6:33pm az dave: The pandemic showed the cost of optimization in the hospital industry. The "slack" went into tents in the parking lots or died at home.
	6:34pm Mark Hurst: ↳ herb.nyc @6:28 Exactly. This is essentially the agribusiness model advocated by Bill Gates - forcing farmers to submit entirely to the IP (intellectual property) of the megacorporations. Reminiscent of the early growth of Microsoft Windows.
	6:34pm Fredericks: This sure sounds like philosophy to me.
	6:34pm Mark Hurst: ↳ az dave @6:33 Good point
	🤖 6:34pm Handy Haversack: ↳ LiXiviated Life @6:32 Heh. He and my dad were pals for a while.
	🤖 6:35pm Webhamster Henry: Yes, Optimization is with respect to the frames. That's why climate activists want the cost of carbon to be part of the equation.
	🤖 6:35pm tim: Joking aside, the optimization of everything is so prevalent in so many aspects of life. How many of you get the side eye or push back for not doing something rather than doing something?
	6:36pm nadalex: Great quotes on control there
	🤖 6:37pm Handy Haversack: Proud Luddite here.
	6:37pm Sensisio: Thanks Mark! One of my favorite shows! A glimmer of hope in the future! : ) You Luddite!
	6:37pm LiXiviated Life: @ Handy Haversack Weird My dad and Allen Ginsberg went to high school together. Silk City represent
	🤖 6:37pm tim: Mark - You’re a Luddite!
	🤖 6:38pm herb.nyc: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:34 Let me plug the Lower East Side Ecology Center. We make compost and potting soil that is free of chemicals or additives. Available at union square and Tompkins sq green markets
	6:38pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:37 Same here, brother
	6:38pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Sensisio @6:37 Thanks, Sensisio
	6:38pm Dean: Her dissertation: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279815469_How_predictable_modeling_rates_of_change_in_individuals_and_populations
	6:38pm Rolando: It a real concern, my team are always bringing me better, faster, more efficient ways of improving tech for a school, but often the proposals and suggestions would remove students sense of worth and well-being. How So? You ask! Well firstly it puts the process and procedure before learning and discovering. I remind them that I don’t want “Mr Busyman” in my team, I want my team to have less to do do, not to be busy “optimising” endlessly.
	🤖 6:40pm DjLorraine: U.S. farm subsidies = 25 billion annually. And i think with mono crops with posionous pesticides.
	6:41pm Mike Sin: Right, for the Luddites, the machinery wasn’t the inherent problem. Just like the the current technology is not really the problem. The problem is this that hold the power to manipulate it.
	6:42pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Mike Sin @6:41 Right! Well said, Mike
	🤖 6:42pm herb.nyc: The Mets optimized themselves for this present season. where’d it get them? (Sad face)
	6:42pm Dean: The only difference with the current technology worth remarking upon is the network effect. If you buy a hammer, I do not thereby have an incentive to buy a hammer. If you buy a smartphone, suddenly an incentive arises.
	6:42pm StringOFperils: It imposes an over-arching morality. What IS best? Why is an 'optimized' choice of approach to living in general, imposed from above, by something else, necessarily right for you? Outside of (ahem) common-sense law.
	6:43pm -жеи: Now if companies could only optimize customer service which continues to get worse and worse
	6:43pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Dean @6:42 Today is kinda like, you buy a hammer, and immediately the hammer attaches itself to your face and won't let go.
	6:43pm Dean: Customer service won't scale. Beats me!
	🤖 6:44pm herb.nyc: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:43 Bad joke- In Russia, hammer hits you!
	6:45pm Dean: But you can personalize your smarthammer.
	6:45pm Mark Hurst: ↳ -жеи @6:43 I agree... companies seem to be optimizing for short-term cost savings (shunting customers to AI chat bots) rather than employing humans who could actually help. Dave Mandl was talking about this on the May 1, 2023 show - www.wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:45pm chresti: They're busy training AI to help customers.
	🤖 6:46pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:43 Couple of friends were looking kind of jealously at K8's Light Phone today.
	6:46pm dale: did we lose the guest? or is the feed to 90.1 down again (as it was this morning and that is directed to ken).
	6:46pm Dean: Speaking of AI, dig this story out of U Washington: https://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2023/09/article-on-whether-us-legal-system-is-ready-for-the-challenge-of-ai-to-human-values-includes-citatio.html
	6:46pm sensisio: and the excellent quality of things today :\|
	🤖 6:46pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ dale @6:46 I just had a drop-off in the stream, but it's back up now.
	6:46pm Sufferwords: need to restart on app
	🤖 6:47pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:46 Same.
	🤖 6:47pm Deano de los Muertos: same, great interview though
	6:47pm David in London: By coincidence, I’ve just seen Dave Mandl’s band, Time Trout, play this evening.
	🤖 6:48pm chresti: ↳ David in London @6:47 Cool!
	🤖 6:48pm Webhamster Henry: ↳ David in London @6:47 Cafe OTO is a happening venue!
	🤖 6:48pm tim: Great interview, Mark! I will definitely read Coco’s book!
	6:48pm dale: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:46 not the stream - mt. hope radio broadcast. may be connected but it's still down.
	6:49pm Dean: No, the stream was cutting out, too.
	🤖 6:49pm Handy Haversack: ↳ David in London @6:47 Nice!
	6:49pm David in London: Chrestikins!
	🤖 6:49pm tim: ↳ David in London @6:47 Time Trout is right!
	6:49pm Rolando: What I like most about Coco is her embrace of the “slack ideals”, the best way I can describe how much I identify with this theme, is words like “lazy Sundays”, and closing shop at 1pm on Saturday, (yeah I remember those days), There is nothing better than purposefully wasting time, I like to leave room in any task for a bit of slack. My Dad always said, there is something wrong in you life if you have run for anything, - being late or rushing past someone is a symptom of being unwell, IOW if you have to run you should re-evaluate what you are doing - The lost art for doing nothing, - this is why I like the beach and ocean so much.
	🤖 6:50pm chresti: Oh boy homework!
	6:50pm Sufferwords: look what optimizing media has wrought- art and literature have become too easy to access- the overload devalues the quality
	🤖 6:50pm Deano de los Muertos: ↳ David in London @6:47 🤘
	🤖 6:50pm Will thee Sound Guy: ↳ dale @6:48 does Staysh know? he was on the chat a little while ago
	🤖 6:51pm chresti: Davidkins!
	6:51pm dale: ↳ Will thee Sound Guy @6:50 i just mentioned it here to him. haven't sent an email. assume he was reading.
	6:52pm Dean: Along these lines, there's the worn adage, "The perfect is the enemy of the good." I take the point, but the perfect is also the enemy of the bad.
	🤖 6:52pm Ken From Hyde Park: On Labor Day, we can remember Henry Ford optimizing Model T automobile production a century ago.
	🤖 6:52pm chresti: ↳ Rolando @6:49 Here, here!
	6:53pm Dean: Yep, Fordism, Taylorism.
	🤖 6:54pm PaulRobeson1923: What is an education for?!
	6:54pm ncxkd: Which FMU show would be most likely to play vaporwave?
	6:54pm -жеи: Dale, is 90.1fm silent now? I also lost one of the streams back there but got onto the stereo MP3 one
	6:55pm Dean: Notice how optimization subscribes totally to "The perfect is the enemy of the good." Good enough is good enough. Make more at lower costs, then sell more at higher prices. Optimal!
	🤖 6:55pm tim: I bet 3 experienced bus driver could have looked a district map and
	6:55pm Jackie G: ↳ Rolando @6:49 WFMU is my favorite waste of time
	🤖 6:55pm Ken From Hyde Park: But I'll bet the bus route map made a really neat picture.
	6:56pm Dean: Damn, I miss Thomas Bros. map guides.
	🤖 6:56pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Mark!
	🤖 6:56pm tim: ↳ tim @6:55 Very efficiently create an efficient bus route.
	🤖 6:56pm Deano de los Muertos: he’s fired up! Thanks Mark!
	🤖 6:57pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark! Thanks Coco!
	🤖 6:57pm tim: Thanks, Mark!
	6:57pm dale: ↳ -жеи @6:54 yes - still dead.
	🤖 6:57pm Deano de los Muertos: Mushroom mushroom!
	🤖 6:58pm Deano de los Muertos: 🦡🦡🦡🍄🍄🐍🐍
	6:58pm matt: take off, eh
	6:58pm ultradamno: Is it legal to resist the unlistenable on WFMU?
	🤖 6:58pm chresti: Thanks Mark and Coco!
	6:58pm dale: i hear a faint hiss so it's the feed, not the tower.
	6:59pm Jackie G: Badger was the shortstop on my little league team. Forget his first name. Everyone just called him Badger
	6:59pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone!
	🤖 7:01pm Will thee Sound Guy: thank you Mark Hurst!

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from September 4, 2023

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

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Upcoming events:

Mon. Nov 4th, 6pm - 7pm: Dystopia update (More info...)
Chatbots are now running rampant - appearing in new-model cars - as we're being told to "be nice to chatbots." Stores are using "digital price tags," which rely on surveillance to set the price to the company's liking. Meantime, Google's AI is giving wrong answers, in some cases, almost half the time. All these and more in Mark's dystopia update.
Mon. Dec 23rd, 6pm - 7pm: Don Fleming guest hosts Techtonic

September 4, 2023: Coco Krumme, author, "Optimal Illusions"

Listen to this show: MP3 - 128K | Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Today: Coco Krumme, author, "Optimal Illusions"

• Optimal Illusions: The False Promise of Optimization, by Coco Krumme

• cocofolio.com, Coco’s website

• Badgers (animation): Wikipedia entry on the video from Sep 2, 2003

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PAST EPISODES: techtonic.fm lists recent Techtonic shows.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist	Track	Approx. start time
Coco Krumme, author, "Optimal Illusions"
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"
	Mark's intro "Mark's intro"
	Interview with Coco Krumme "Interview with Coco Krumme"	0:08:09 (MP3 \| Pop-up)
	Mark's comments "Mark's comments"	0:43:51 (MP3 \| Pop-up)
Fifth District	Potter Potter Potter	0:55:00 (MP3 \| Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtonimizers!
	🤖 6:00pm chresti: Hi Mark and Techtonians!
	6:00pm Rolando: Good morning friends as always I’m looking forward to the learning journey. Telemetry!! 😊
	6:01pm Bea: Good evening, Mark and fellow listeners!
	🤖 6:01pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! All!
	🤖 6:01pm Webhamster Henry: Hi there, Friends!
	🤖 6:02pm tim: Hey Mark! I saw and heard an ELECTRIC leaf blower today! Maybe there is hope! Hey everyone!
	6:02pm David in London: Evening Mark and all Technoids.
	🤖 6:02pm DjLorraine: Hello!
	🤖 6:02pm Deano de los Muertos: hello everybody 👾
	🤖 6:02pm Webhamster Henry: in re: "Fancy dataviz", Tufte calles it "Chartjunk"
	🤖 6:04pm Wendy del Formaggio: Hey Mark! Ooh! I'm looking forward to this show. I've been thinking about the failures of the hyper-focus on optimization and efficiency. Let's just be humans! Fuck capitalism!
	6:05pm Rolando: Spring and the promise of Australian sunshine ☀️☀️
	🤖 6:05pm Ken From Hyde Park: I think Vicki already did a whole week on Optimization — www.wfmu.org... Wait, what?
	🤖 6:06pm herb.nyc: Hola. Just finished a 7x7 Kenken (aka Ken Andy). Took me 25mins. I optimized it and am on time for techtonic!
	🤖 6:07pm Webhamster Henry: That's not what "slack" used to mean: www.subgenius.com...
	6:07pm swivs: You say Slack? This a Bob party?
	6:08pm swivs: ↳ Webhamster Henry @6:07 🥹
	🤖 6:08pm herb.nyc: Who has a pair of Haband slacks?
	6:08pm StringOFperils: Digital for the Pinks NOW!
	6:08pm swivs: Zippy the Clown likes Slacks
	6:09pm nadalex: I love Infinite Detail! Whats the date of the Maughn interview?
	🤖 6:09pm herb.nyc: Clogged Suez Canal? Get a colonoscopy! I did, Aug 9. I passed
	🤖 6:09pm Wendy del Formaggio: Mark, did you just use the word "perturbation"? NICE! I looked it up, and now I know a new and very useful word.
	6:09pm ultradamno: I thought they were pants
	🤖 6:09pm tim: In the analog world it feels like there’s no slack in the system either.
	🤖 6:09pm Deano de los Muertos: very interesting topic
	6:09pm Dean: Contingency planning is a species of optimization, since we will never control all the variables. In other words, if you really want to optimize something, you should provide for buffer.
	🤖 6:10pm Handy Haversack: Hello, Mark, Techyon Particles.
	6:10pm nadalex: Btw if anyone likes audio books, the audiobook for Infinite Detail is amazing. Available from your library on Libby app
	6:11pm tom tom the pipers son: lack of slack synonymous with lack of running room the adolf loos term in ornament and crime?
	6:13pm Bat_Ranch_Mike: Wow!! Techtonic is doing a show which is in the vein of the Church if the Subgenius. The concept of Slack is central to the Church! You can check it out online.
	🤖 6:13pm DjLorraine: In the 70's my brothers hand me downs of i think Farah slacks had the best pockets.
	🤖 6:16pm tim: “or something” hahaha!
	6:17pm Dean: There was reverence for money, and there is no mystique about money.
	6:18pm tom tom the pipers son: ↳ tom tom the pipers son @6:11 is there a historical analogy between art nouveau and total design and technology optimization?
	6:20pm Mark Hurst: ↳ tim @6:02 I hope it was quieter than the usual pollution-belching model!
	6:20pm -жеи: Hi everybody
	6:21pm Juli: Enjoying this:::...:::
	🤖 6:22pm herb.nyc: Poor farmers. Small ones are being bought out by corporations and the rich. Latter: Bill gates is a farmer. Yep (Yay, station manager here. ie, head farmer)
	🤖 6:22pm Ken From Hyde Park: The farmland around my dear mother's place used to consist of wheat, barley, millet, flax, oats, rye and sunflowers. These days, it's almost all just corn and soybeans.
	🤖 6:22pm tim: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:20 It was! Not exactly soothing but the noise pollution (and pollution pollution) was greatly improved!
	🤖 6:23pm herb.nyc: Mark mentions a beet farmer. NOT cool band the Beat Farmers
	6:23pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Ken From Hyde Park @6:05 Good point, @KfHP - lots of listening in Vicki's Optimized radio stream from 2016.
	🤖 6:23pm Wendy del Formaggio: Oh. I've been reading Wendell Berry's "The Unsettling of America" lately, and he was talking about these same themes in 1977.
	6:23pm -жеи: I love The Beat Pharmers
	🤖 6:24pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ herb.nyc @6:23 You read my mind, herb.nyc!
	6:24pm Bat_Ranch_Mike: Beet farmer Bob ... last name Dobbs???
	6:24pm Mark Hurst: ↳ nadalex @6:09 Tim Maughan from Nov 11, 2019: www.wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:24pm DjLorraine: I just watched the documentary "Kiss the Ground" about regenerative agriculture. No till and carbon capturing are highlighted. Woody Harrelson is the narrator. Thanks Mark Hurst for this timely and important show.
	🤖 6:24pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Ken From Hyde Park @6:22 Yup, that's the interstate system. Corn on one side of the road, soy on the other.
	6:24pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:09 Twenty-five cent words here on Techtonic
	🤖 6:25pm tim: ↳ -жеи @6:23 Ha! I was hoping for a joke there!
	6:25pm -жеи: ↳ herb.nyc @6:23 Herb you must be talking about the British Beat Farmers. I meant the American band Th Beat Pharmers
	6:25pm Juli: She means make crops which you can spray w pesticides and grow more
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Bat_Ranch_Mike @6:13 Bob will bring back the slack
	6:25pm Juli: It's cancer.
	6:25pm Jackie G: ↳ DjLorraine @6:24 Saw that. Seems like a no brainer.
	6:26pm StringOFperils: ↳ Juli @6:25 True. These GMO crops are co-engineered with the chemistry they market
	🤖 6:26pm tim: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:24 You sure you’ve never been to Champaign IL?
	🤖 6:26pm herb.nyc: ↳ -жеи @6:25 No. There’s a west coast (?) Beat F band. 1986,87?
	🤖 6:27pm Handy Haversack: ↳ tim @6:26 We are all Tim from Champaign!
	6:27pm -жеи: The Subgenius parallels to this show are impressive
	🤖 6:27pm herb.nyc: ↳ -жеи @6:25 The Beat Farmers were an American rock band that formed in San Diego, California, United States, in August 1983, and enjoyed a cult following into the early 1990s before
	🤖 6:27pm Deano de los Muertos: I’ve heard that the gmo crops can cross pollinate and invade your fields whether you want them or not
	6:28pm Dean: Bill Gates bought the farm?!
	6:28pm StringOFperils: ↳ Deano de los Muertos @6:27 'Genetic drift'
	🤖 6:28pm herb.nyc: How about SEEDLESS fruits? If ya wanna grow them then you hafta buy seeds. Buy from mega corporations?
	🤖 6:29pm Will thee Sound Guy: Hi Mark and all!!! been listening, just having a chance to chime in
	6:29pm Fredericks: ↳ herb.nyc @6:27 I have their first record.
	6:29pm Jackie G: Really like the name Coco Krumme
	6:29pm LiXiviated Life: Hi ya crew
	6:29pm -жеи: ↳ herb.nyc @6:27 So many Beat Farmers. What can men do against such reckless hate?
	🤖 6:30pm DjLorraine: ↳ herb.nyc @6:28 Yes, the 1st time i saw this i knew it was not a good in the long run.
	6:30pm StringOFperils: ↳ -жеи @6:29 They're too busy playing bongos to really accomplish much
	🤖 6:30pm Ken From Hyde Park: ↳ herb.nyc @6:27 Featuring Country Dick Montana, who died onstage during a performance. 😔
	🤖 6:30pm herb.nyc: ↳ Fredericks @6:29 Maybe I saw them at Irving Plaza
	6:30pm tom tom the pipers son: strangulated beat farmers?
	🤖 6:30pm Handy Haversack: Oh, wow, yeah. All the GTO solvers make poker a lot more boring.
	6:30pm Dean: The solution poetry getting boring? Strip poker!
	6:31pm ultradamno: Country Dick Montana would be a great name for a singer of a C&W band that does Dictators covers
	6:32pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Will thee Sound Guy @6:29 Good to see you, Will
	🤖 6:32pm Handy Haversack: Fortunately I'm not good enough at poker to hang with the people who are memorizing the solvers, so at my level, the human element persists. Long live amateurism.
	6:32pm LiXiviated Life: Gregory Corso once told me you can tell a Beat Farmer by his fried shoes
	🤖 6:32pm tim: Ken - do you feel the creeping sadness now that WFMU has achieved world domination?
	6:33pm Dean: But "solving" problems isn't the same as "optimizing" solutions. Being hell-bent on solving things is a good thing. But the first step is in understanding the problem we aim to solve.
	6:33pm az dave: The pandemic showed the cost of optimization in the hospital industry. The "slack" went into tents in the parking lots or died at home.
	6:34pm Mark Hurst: ↳ herb.nyc @6:28 Exactly. This is essentially the agribusiness model advocated by Bill Gates - forcing farmers to submit entirely to the IP (intellectual property) of the megacorporations. Reminiscent of the early growth of Microsoft Windows.
	6:34pm Fredericks: This sure sounds like philosophy to me.
	6:34pm Mark Hurst: ↳ az dave @6:33 Good point
	🤖 6:34pm Handy Haversack: ↳ LiXiviated Life @6:32 Heh. He and my dad were pals for a while.
	🤖 6:35pm Webhamster Henry: Yes, Optimization is with respect to the frames. That's why climate activists want the cost of carbon to be part of the equation.
	🤖 6:35pm tim: Joking aside, the optimization of everything is so prevalent in so many aspects of life. How many of you get the side eye or push back for not doing something rather than doing something?
	6:36pm nadalex: Great quotes on control there
	🤖 6:37pm Handy Haversack: Proud Luddite here.
	6:37pm Sensisio: Thanks Mark! One of my favorite shows! A glimmer of hope in the future! : ) You Luddite!
	6:37pm LiXiviated Life: @ Handy Haversack Weird My dad and Allen Ginsberg went to high school together. Silk City represent
	🤖 6:37pm tim: Mark - You’re a Luddite!
	🤖 6:38pm herb.nyc: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:34 Let me plug the Lower East Side Ecology Center. We make compost and potting soil that is free of chemicals or additives. Available at union square and Tompkins sq green markets
	6:38pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:37 Same here, brother
	6:38pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Sensisio @6:37 Thanks, Sensisio
	6:38pm Dean: Her dissertation: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279815469_How_predictable_modeling_rates_of_change_in_individuals_and_populations
	6:38pm Rolando: It a real concern, my team are always bringing me better, faster, more efficient ways of improving tech for a school, but often the proposals and suggestions would remove students sense of worth and well-being. How So? You ask! Well firstly it puts the process and procedure before learning and discovering. I remind them that I don’t want “Mr Busyman” in my team, I want my team to have less to do do, not to be busy “optimising” endlessly.
	🤖 6:40pm DjLorraine: U.S. farm subsidies = 25 billion annually. And i think with mono crops with posionous pesticides.
	6:41pm Mike Sin: Right, for the Luddites, the machinery wasn’t the inherent problem. Just like the the current technology is not really the problem. The problem is this that hold the power to manipulate it.
	6:42pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Mike Sin @6:41 Right! Well said, Mike
	🤖 6:42pm herb.nyc: The Mets optimized themselves for this present season. where’d it get them? (Sad face)
	6:42pm Dean: The only difference with the current technology worth remarking upon is the network effect. If you buy a hammer, I do not thereby have an incentive to buy a hammer. If you buy a smartphone, suddenly an incentive arises.
	6:42pm StringOFperils: It imposes an over-arching morality. What IS best? Why is an 'optimized' choice of approach to living in general, imposed from above, by something else, necessarily right for you? Outside of (ahem) common-sense law.
	6:43pm -жеи: Now if companies could only optimize customer service which continues to get worse and worse
	6:43pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Dean @6:42 Today is kinda like, you buy a hammer, and immediately the hammer attaches itself to your face and won't let go.
	6:43pm Dean: Customer service won't scale. Beats me!
	🤖 6:44pm herb.nyc: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:43 Bad joke- In Russia, hammer hits you!
	6:45pm Dean: But you can personalize your smarthammer.
	6:45pm Mark Hurst: ↳ -жеи @6:43 I agree... companies seem to be optimizing for short-term cost savings (shunting customers to AI chat bots) rather than employing humans who could actually help. Dave Mandl was talking about this on the May 1, 2023 show - www.wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:45pm chresti: They're busy training AI to help customers.
	🤖 6:46pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:43 Couple of friends were looking kind of jealously at K8's Light Phone today.
	6:46pm dale: did we lose the guest? or is the feed to 90.1 down again (as it was this morning and that is directed to ken).
	6:46pm Dean: Speaking of AI, dig this story out of U Washington: https://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2023/09/article-on-whether-us-legal-system-is-ready-for-the-challenge-of-ai-to-human-values-includes-citatio.html
	6:46pm sensisio: and the excellent quality of things today :\|
	🤖 6:46pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ dale @6:46 I just had a drop-off in the stream, but it's back up now.
	6:46pm Sufferwords: need to restart on app
	🤖 6:47pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:46 Same.
	🤖 6:47pm Deano de los Muertos: same, great interview though
	6:47pm David in London: By coincidence, I’ve just seen Dave Mandl’s band, Time Trout, play this evening.
	🤖 6:48pm chresti: ↳ David in London @6:47 Cool!
	🤖 6:48pm Webhamster Henry: ↳ David in London @6:47 Cafe OTO is a happening venue!
	🤖 6:48pm tim: Great interview, Mark! I will definitely read Coco’s book!
	6:48pm dale: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:46 not the stream - mt. hope radio broadcast. may be connected but it's still down.
	6:49pm Dean: No, the stream was cutting out, too.
	🤖 6:49pm Handy Haversack: ↳ David in London @6:47 Nice!
	6:49pm David in London: Chrestikins!
	🤖 6:49pm tim: ↳ David in London @6:47 Time Trout is right!
	6:49pm Rolando: What I like most about Coco is her embrace of the “slack ideals”, the best way I can describe how much I identify with this theme, is words like “lazy Sundays”, and closing shop at 1pm on Saturday, (yeah I remember those days), There is nothing better than purposefully wasting time, I like to leave room in any task for a bit of slack. My Dad always said, there is something wrong in you life if you have run for anything, - being late or rushing past someone is a symptom of being unwell, IOW if you have to run you should re-evaluate what you are doing - The lost art for doing nothing, - this is why I like the beach and ocean so much.
	🤖 6:50pm chresti: Oh boy homework!
	6:50pm Sufferwords: look what optimizing media has wrought- art and literature have become too easy to access- the overload devalues the quality
	🤖 6:50pm Deano de los Muertos: ↳ David in London @6:47 🤘
	🤖 6:50pm Will thee Sound Guy: ↳ dale @6:48 does Staysh know? he was on the chat a little while ago
	🤖 6:51pm chresti: Davidkins!
	6:51pm dale: ↳ Will thee Sound Guy @6:50 i just mentioned it here to him. haven't sent an email. assume he was reading.
	6:52pm Dean: Along these lines, there's the worn adage, "The perfect is the enemy of the good." I take the point, but the perfect is also the enemy of the bad.
	🤖 6:52pm Ken From Hyde Park: On Labor Day, we can remember Henry Ford optimizing Model T automobile production a century ago.
	🤖 6:52pm chresti: ↳ Rolando @6:49 Here, here!
	6:53pm Dean: Yep, Fordism, Taylorism.
	🤖 6:54pm PaulRobeson1923: What is an education for?!
	6:54pm ncxkd: Which FMU show would be most likely to play vaporwave?
	6:54pm -жеи: Dale, is 90.1fm silent now? I also lost one of the streams back there but got onto the stereo MP3 one
	6:55pm Dean: Notice how optimization subscribes totally to "The perfect is the enemy of the good." Good enough is good enough. Make more at lower costs, then sell more at higher prices. Optimal!
	🤖 6:55pm tim: I bet 3 experienced bus driver could have looked a district map and
	6:55pm Jackie G: ↳ Rolando @6:49 WFMU is my favorite waste of time
	🤖 6:55pm Ken From Hyde Park: But I'll bet the bus route map made a really neat picture.
	6:56pm Dean: Damn, I miss Thomas Bros. map guides.
	🤖 6:56pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Mark!
	🤖 6:56pm tim: ↳ tim @6:55 Very efficiently create an efficient bus route.
	🤖 6:56pm Deano de los Muertos: he’s fired up! Thanks Mark!
	🤖 6:57pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark! Thanks Coco!
	🤖 6:57pm tim: Thanks, Mark!
	6:57pm dale: ↳ -жеи @6:54 yes - still dead.
	🤖 6:57pm Deano de los Muertos: Mushroom mushroom!
	🤖 6:58pm Deano de los Muertos: 🦡🦡🦡🍄🍄🐍🐍
	6:58pm matt: take off, eh
	6:58pm ultradamno: Is it legal to resist the unlistenable on WFMU?
	🤖 6:58pm chresti: Thanks Mark and Coco!
	6:58pm dale: i hear a faint hiss so it's the feed, not the tower.
	6:59pm Jackie G: Badger was the shortstop on my little league team. Forget his first name. Everyone just called him Badger
	6:59pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone!
	🤖 7:01pm Will thee Sound Guy: thank you Mark Hurst!

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from September 4, 2023

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